Keep in mind that mankind is "spirit, soul, and body." The soul and body are vehicles of expression ... robotic garments of sorts ... for the spirit person. We children of God would not learn nearly as quickly without bodies and souls surrounding our spirit-person. My opinion is we learn 100 times as fast with a body as do the angels which have only spirit.
The fire in Gehenna (a.k.a. "hell") is not put out ("quenched") ... but what about those whose souls are disintegrating in hell? Do they disintegrate forever? Or, do they disintegrate until the soul is gone and only the core of the spirit remains.
Remember Jesus' words, "You will not come out until you have paid the last farthing." Certainly if we throw a stick of wood into a hot furnace, a cup of water will not quench the fire. But the stick of wood will not burn forever. The soul which is disintegrating in hell will disintegrate only until it is destroyed. That leaves the spirit-person naked, but able to be reassigned to a life experience.
What then is "the worm" that dies not? "Worm" is the metaphor for the spirit person. The spirit, when naked is humble like a worm. The spirit of a man is undying and cannot be destroyed. Yet, there is no reason to expect this person to be tormented "forever" but only until the punishment fits the crime.
"The soul that sins shall die." The Lord did not say that the soul that sins shall be tormented forever. "Soul" [nephesh] can be the whole sentient being of man, including body and soul. The body dies on earth as a result of sin. The inner garment, the "soul", disintegrates in hell. The spirit dies not but must have a chance somewhere to return to the Father's house as did the prodigal son.
Yet, this is not to belittle our salvation. Jesus paid a great price to purchase salvation which is received only by those who believe. We who believe in Jesus are saved from going to hell and from losing our soul garments. Salvation in Jesus gives us a resurrection back onto earth in a human body... ready to go on learning to serve the Lord.
Remedialist
Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Sunday, November 16, 2008
Why not expect TIME in heaven?
ANOTHER THING CONCERNING THE IDEA OF "ETERNITY"
Hello to readers. In a recent post at http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/doctrine-debate-forum/314-hope-beyond-hell-3.html#post1360, I have begun a reply to Rick on the subject of the translation of the Greek AION (Strong's Greek word G165 165, and see G166) and the Hebrew OLAM (Strongs H5769 ... 5769).
On that subject, I would like to rhetorically ask the question, "Why should we expect to experience 'eternity' in heaven ... since heaven is part of the creation of God which shall pass away?"
As we know from Scripture, heaven and earth are created places and they shall pass away. The Genesis account describes God creating the heavens and earth ... as well as all that is in them ... over the course of time. Should we not then expect to experience time in heaven? And, if we experience time, are we experiencing "eternity"? If heaven shall pass away, how can it be said, when heaven has passed away, that we experienced eternity during the duration of our life in heaven?Instead of "eternity", I think we should look forward to experiencing PROGRESS and EFFORT over TIME in HEAVEN (as well as on earth during the Kingdom ages yet to unfold upon the earth.)
Hello to readers. In a recent post at http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/doctrine-debate-forum/314-hope-beyond-hell-3.html#post1360, I have begun a reply to Rick on the subject of the translation of the Greek AION (Strong's Greek word G165 165, and see G166) and the Hebrew OLAM (Strongs H5769 ... 5769).
On that subject, I would like to rhetorically ask the question, "Why should we expect to experience 'eternity' in heaven ... since heaven is part of the creation of God which shall pass away?"
As we know from Scripture, heaven and earth are created places and they shall pass away. The Genesis account describes God creating the heavens and earth ... as well as all that is in them ... over the course of time. Should we not then expect to experience time in heaven? And, if we experience time, are we experiencing "eternity"? If heaven shall pass away, how can it be said, when heaven has passed away, that we experienced eternity during the duration of our life in heaven?Instead of "eternity", I think we should look forward to experiencing PROGRESS and EFFORT over TIME in HEAVEN (as well as on earth during the Kingdom ages yet to unfold upon the earth.)
"Hell"
Concerning "Hell", I would begin to discuss it by saying that we need to see that mankind is a three-part being: spirit, soul, and body as mention by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot.
Timotheus Wood
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot.
Timotheus Wood
Some Basic Beginings
A welcome to Christians (as well as other readers).
If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.
My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well. Here is a verse about universal remedialism:
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.Matthew 5:25-27
This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.
"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-26 If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign. Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation. So, I respectfully disagree with some traditional Christian points of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Remedialist
If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.
My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well. Here is a verse about universal remedialism:
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.Matthew 5:25-27
This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.
"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-26 If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign. Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation. So, I respectfully disagree with some traditional Christian points of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Remedialist
Monday, November 3, 2008
Prodigal Son
I call myself a universal remedialist rather than a universal salvationist. Reason is because I see that salvation in Jesus is limited to those who receive Him in this age before His return. The people who have life AFTER hell will be receiving it having paid for alot of their own sins in hell and the lake of fire. I would not want to be in their shoes.
I wonder how many people realise that the parable of the Prodigal Son and the Father and the older brother does not have anyone left behind in hell. The Prodigal Son returns from having learned his lesson in a hellish existence on earth.
Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire will certainly learn a lesson the hard way. But, they will come to themselves as did the Prodigal Son and will return to the Father's house! I call that "Universal Remedialism."
I wonder how many people realise that the parable of the Prodigal Son and the Father and the older brother does not have anyone left behind in hell. The Prodigal Son returns from having learned his lesson in a hellish existence on earth.
Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire will certainly learn a lesson the hard way. But, they will come to themselves as did the Prodigal Son and will return to the Father's house! I call that "Universal Remedialism."
Sunday, November 2, 2008
Is Salvation "Eternal"?
Is life in heaven "eternal"? One may wonder if "salvation" is "eternal" why should not hell be "eternal" as well. The quick answer is: neither salvation nor hell are eternal but are "eonian"... which means they are of an indefinite but limited time.
Rather than "eternity", followers of Jesus will experience TIME in heaven. Heaven, as we know from scripture, is a created place. It did not exist in God before the beginning when He created heavens and earth. As we experience time on earth, we shall also experience time in heaven.
To experience the passage of time "while the ages roll!" Won't that make it so much more fun than "eternity"?
To begin looking at translation of Greek and Hebrew words, we should look at Strong's Concordance.
Aion versus "Forever"
We see from the Strong's numbers referenced, that the word which was translated "eternal" was Greek word #166. That is aion (or eon) which means an era or a time of unspecified duration.
Strong's Numbers are given here below for Hebrews 5:9
And [G2532] being made perfect [G5048] (5685), he became [G1096] (5633) the author [G159] of eternal [G166] salvation [G4991] unto all [G3956] them that obey [G5219] (5723) him [G846];
The Greek word G166 is AION. The King James Version translated in as "eternal". Therefore people think that salvation is eternal, but the Greek word #166...is not "eternal" it is "eonian" ... which is to say... it goes on for an indefinite time.
It should be obvious to someone who uses the Strong's concordance that AION means an indefinite period of time. Use the concordance to see how it is used in Matthew 24. This is the word which in Matthew 24 the disciples used to ask Jesus, "What will be the sign of ... the end of the eon." KJV translated that as "the end of the world." We can all readily see that something which has an end is not eternal.
Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of our salvation as something which is age-lasting (eonian), something which goes on as long as heaven and earth remain.
Remedialist
Rather than "eternity", followers of Jesus will experience TIME in heaven. Heaven, as we know from scripture, is a created place. It did not exist in God before the beginning when He created heavens and earth. As we experience time on earth, we shall also experience time in heaven.
To experience the passage of time "while the ages roll!" Won't that make it so much more fun than "eternity"?
To begin looking at translation of Greek and Hebrew words, we should look at Strong's Concordance.
Aion versus "Forever"
We see from the Strong's numbers referenced, that the word which was translated "eternal" was Greek word #166. That is aion (or eon) which means an era or a time of unspecified duration.
Strong's Numbers are given here below for Hebrews 5:9
And [G2532] being made perfect [G5048] (5685), he became [G1096] (5633) the author [G159] of eternal [G166] salvation [G4991] unto all [G3956] them that obey [G5219] (5723) him [G846];
The Greek word G166 is AION. The King James Version translated in as "eternal". Therefore people think that salvation is eternal, but the Greek word #166...is not "eternal" it is "eonian" ... which is to say... it goes on for an indefinite time.
It should be obvious to someone who uses the Strong's concordance that AION means an indefinite period of time. Use the concordance to see how it is used in Matthew 24. This is the word which in Matthew 24 the disciples used to ask Jesus, "What will be the sign of ... the end of the eon." KJV translated that as "the end of the world." We can all readily see that something which has an end is not eternal.
Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of our salvation as something which is age-lasting (eonian), something which goes on as long as heaven and earth remain.
Remedialist
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