Remedialist - Interfacing a Dying Age

Remedialist - Interfacing a Dying Age

Welcome to the Remedialist blog, dedicated to a God Who is a Father ... a truly good Father ... who is full of love as well as holiness and righteousness.This is a blog to introduce seekers of the truth to the true meaning of God as a Father Who will bring up all His children (including you, me, and all the good and evil children) into His ways of truth, love, and goodness.The editor does not claim to know everything... but he knows more about this one subject than 99.9% of all people on the planet.

God and Time

Hey... there are vast amounts of things I do not know.

But... I have some partial knowledge that goes far beyond what most people know.

Yet... the important thing is to know Jesus. And, knowing Him, to know His Father and the Holy Spirit (who is ministering in the earth now as Jesus' representative.)

That said... I want to proclaim - in case anyone can be reached - some of the truths I know about God's ways.

GOD AND TIME:

Where did theologians and the mass Christian culture get the idea that God does not have any experience of time? I am sure that Yahweh God (which is Jesus and/or the Father) experiences time. I know of no Hebrew or Greek word which is used to express utter timelessness.

Think of it this way: does not God ACT (that is, DO things)? Well, if God DOES something, then there a BEFORE and an AFTER for the doing of that thing. In other words, by stating that God acts, we have stated that there exists a linear measure. Any linear measure of action defines TIME.

So.... Genesis says, "In begining, God created heavens and earth." There you have it, God DID something. If we admit that He DID something, we admit that there is, for God, a "before" and an "after." So... in the first verse of our Holy Scripture we have the undeniable statement that God experiences time.

That said, it does not necessarily follow that God experiences time exactly as do humans.

Approach the subject from a different Scripture reference. Paul says in Romans chapter 1 that the invisible things of God are clearly perceived through the things which have been made. Well.... we know that time exists. If our experience of "time" has been made by God, then this demonstrates something to us of "the invisible things of God." If we experience time, then there must be "time" in God's experience. We must, as His children, experience the passage of time, so that when we become little Sons of God, then we will be adept and dealing with time.

Remedialist

Central Points for this Blog

To keep the main points for this blog in mind, I will state them here even though it may have already been said.

1. God is Father of spirits. [Visualise a "spirit" as being a flame in the form of a human.] An individual "spirit" is basically like an angel. It has intelligence and capabilities within its realm assigned to it by the Father.

A verse saying literally that God is the "father of spirits" is in Hebrews 12. There the Lord says we should be subject to the Father of spirits Who disciplines us for our good.

2. Man is a three-part being now that God has incarnated us into human bodies. Man is spirit, soul, and body. This is summed up in a verse in 1 Thessalonias 5, but it is evident throughout the Bible. See teachings by Watchman Nee for alot of widely published exposition of this. A major concept for this is found in the study of the Genesis 2 account in which God formed Adam of the dust and "breathed" (literally, "spirited") into Adam the spirit of lives and man generated a living soul. God is not a wind-bag, so we know He did not "breathe" wind into Adam. God is a Spirit. The Hebrew word for wind and breath is the same as the word for spirit (nephesh), so we take its meaning in the context of Genesis chapter 2 to be the act of placing spirit into Adam. God does not "create" spirit but begets it. He IS spirit and He begets spirit. (Like begets like.)

3. The purpose of having His children incarnated into human bodies and souls is to give them vehicles for expression and education. The body and soul which are like automobiles for the inner spirit-child-of-God accelerate the learning curve of that child of God. If we were only a spirit, having no body, our learning speed would be slow. Learning is increased because the quantity and intensity of experience is increased by being incarnated in a body and a soul.

4. God warned Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, "for on the day you eat of it, you shall die." God did not warn Adam of going to hell forever and ever, for that was not a possibility.

The theif is Satan. Satan comes "to steal, kill, and destroy." Satan stole Adam's inheritance in the garden. Satan killed Adam and Eve. And Satan destroys souls in Sheol (which is the grave or the unseen).

5. Father's goal for mankind is that mankind should retain soul and body and use them to obey Father and grow up in wisdom and knowledge and worship of Him.

Thanks, reader, for trying to understand.

Sincerely,
Remedialist

Burning the chaff with UNEXTINGUISHED fire

As a further evidence for what I said in post on the unquenched fire, here is what Jesus said. He said there is chaff which shall be burnt with UNEXTINGUISHED fire.
See Mt. 3:12, Lu. 3:17

Well, this makes a case for the "fire" of the Lake of Fire which consumes until there is no more fuel to burn, at which time the pain ceases.

The alternate view of Isaiah 66:24 - that the fire of the man is his own spirit and not an outside force - is still appropriate for Isaiah 66:24, but not for the "fire" of Gehenna or the "fire" of the Lake of Fire.

Worms that die not, and fire that is not quenched.

One reason I have been not posting much is because of the temptation when posting to pretend to know too much too certainly. In order to get someone to believe you, you need to act like you are quite certain.

My certainty about a few things is very high. My certainty about other things is less. If I were to write/talk about only the most certain things, I would not have much to say. I would say that Jesus is Savior of those who put their trust in Him. And a few other truths that are certain enough.

I am also quite certain there is no everlasting torture of anyone. But how to demonstrate that to others sometimes involves a bit of speculation with a bit of light on Scripture.

A case in point is the discussion of that worm which dieth not and that fire which is not quenched. Does one reader in a million actually think about the words of Scripture which are involved in that? Check out Isaiah 66:24 at www.blueletterbible.org

Isa 66:24
And they shall go forth 3318 , and look 7200 upon the carcases 6297 of the men 582 that have transgressed 6586 against me: for their worm 8438 shall not die 4191 , neither shall their fire 784 be quenched 3518 ; and they shall be an abhorring 1860 unto all flesh 1320.

Let us think a moment. If a fire is not quenched, does that mean that the fuel it is burning must continue to exist (and be in pain) forever? Hmmmm. My answer is: Nope, I never saw fuel which never was consumed. I have seen fires which were not quenched, but the fuel burnt down to zero.

Has there ever been a worm whose food just regenerated again and again so that the worm could feed on the same food forever?

So, taking Isaiah 66:24 as holy Scripture, we believe there is a fire and a worm, but we absolutely have no indication that there is someone who is tormented forever by this fire and this worm.

What is more, there are details of these Scriptures which imply that there may be something more subtle - as there always is - taking place beyond the surface.

Look again at Isaiah 66:24, you see the word "t-h-e-i-r" twice. It is "their" fire and "their" worm. The fire and the worm BELONG to the ones who are being looked upon. If I am being burnt, the fire does not belong to me. If a carcass is being eaten by a worm, the worm does not belong to the carcass. Think about it. So.....this fire is not an outside agent acting upon the person, but is the possession of that person. The fire would seem to be the spirit of that person which never dies. The fire is not quenched... means the spirit of the person does not perish.

Is the "worm" an outside agent or is it the spirit of the person who has gone to hell? I lean toward seeing "their worm" as being the spirit of the person which remains after the body and soul have been killed and destroyed. Remember man is a three-part being. Man is "spirit, soul, and body." The body can be killed, the soul can be destroyed, but the spirit of the man lives. The spirit is that living being (child) which came from God.

Genesis says God breathed (spirited) into man the breath (spirit) of life. That is how we are children of God. The incarnate spirit is the child of God. The spirit is the fire which is not quenched and it also may be described as a worm which does not die.

The Lord said, in Isaiah 53, "I am a worm and no man." That is what Jesus became when His body was dead and His soul was poured out. He descended into Sheol (the grave) and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey God in the days of Noah. He was a spirit and no longer and incarnate man ... until the resurrection. Thus a "worm" in Isaiah 66:24 is a spirit of a man after it is denuded of the body and soul.

Look it up in Strong's Concordance online. The word "worm" is not always used in the same way. It is not even always the same Hebrew word. So... we must THINK with the HOLY SPIRIT of the Lord saving us and leading us.

Check out Job 25:6.

Job 25:6
How much less man 582, [that is] a worm 7415? and the son 1121 of man 120, [which is] a worm 8438?

Ah hah! Here we have a reference to a worm being a man! This is the #8438 worm. In contrast, the #7415 "worm" is alternately translated as a maggot. So things may be more complicated that anyone of us would like to admit.

So... if a man's worm does not die in Sheol, does that mean the man is being eaten by a worm "foever"? Or, more sensibly, does it probably mean that the spirit of the man lives on?

Remedialist

None Can Cross the Great Chasm Between Paradise and Sheol

Looking at the Rich Man and Lazarus again. If we only think the way knees jerk as a reflex reaction, we may jump to the conclusion (like a frog) that absolutely NO ONE... EVER...IN ANY STATE WHATSOEVER...CROSSES from Heaven to Hell.

Here is the passage quoted again:

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)

Luke:16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with thecrumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22"Now the poor man died and was carriedaway by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may crossover from there to us.'

Taking the words for what they say, no one crosses between Hades and the bosom of Abraham.

The answer to this seeming problem lies in the fact that the prisoner in Hades will return to God the Father - not to Abraham's bosom in Paradise. Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 (in Context) The spirit, in this case, is not going to go up to see Abraham and Lazarus but is going to report to God. God will direct him where he must go from there.

We know from 2 Peter that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison which formerly did not obey God during the time of Noah. Obviously Jesus was able to go into Hades and come out into the earth plane and from there into heaven. So, we should not take Luke 16:26 too literally with regard to "none may crossover."

Remedialist

The Great Chasm Between the Rich Man and Lazarus

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)

Luke:16:19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually
dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was
laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the
crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were
coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried
away by the angels to Abraham's
bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during
your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but
now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides
all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who
wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross
over from there to us.'

The best wording I have found for the Remedialist doctrine concerning Luke 16:19-26 (see link at Luke 16:24-26 ) is part of an article written by a friend. It is as follows:

In earth life, one person may suffer from cancer and, another, tuberculosis and still another leprosy. In none of these does a normally rational person conclude that an infuriated God is seeking vengeance and inflicting torment. He recognizes that such illnesses and suffering are the natural outcome of the violation of the law of physical well-being. Similarly with the soul in Hades, it is but enduring the inevitable outcome of violating God's laws. (Ezek. 18:4) The soul dies because the rules for its health were not observed.

Father Abraham told the rich man that there was balance in God's plan for His offspring. (Lk. 16:25) But the Greek word translated "tormented" never should have been rendered in that way. At the worst, its meaning is pain. The lexicon gives the meanings of "pain of mind, grief, distress." However, the indoctrinated translators of Scripture lost no opportunity for paralyzing the people with stark terror of a demon-God. It should also be pointed out that the Greek word translated "torment" in Lk. 16:23 can lend itself to that rendering, yet that is not true to its original meaning. Originally it had to do with the applying of a touchstone to gold for trying its genuineness. By analogy and with reference to people, it had to do with cross-examination and/or the placing under duress to obtain a true confession.

In this parable, the Lord was pointing out how the rich man found himself in duress to obtain a true confession. This applies even to the trying of the gold with the touchstone, because gold symbolizes spirit. Here the spirit's genuineness and worth were being tried, as it was forced to shed its refuge of lies. It should be clear to any thinking person that the laws of God are designed to bring about balance. The rich man had enjoyed the good of the earth, though we may surmise that he misused the blessings. As a result, the balances swung toward the counterbalance beyond death. During the process, the rich man had ample time to reflect upon and come to an understanding of God's immutable laws of Truth and justice. During the earth life, Lazarus endured much, and yet through it he had found his Redeemer and his God, as shown in the meaning of his name--whom God helps. Thus, beyond death, the balances swung toward Lazarus being consoled.

EXPERIENCE IN PARADISE

Lazarus is a type for people who are “born-again” believers in Jesus, those who have formed a contract with the Lord during their earth-life. Father Abraham continued to explain that, between his own realm and the lower zone of the unsaved, there had been fixed a "great chasm" so that there was no passage from one zone to the other for dwellers in either zone. Of course, balance could not be realized by those in the unseen world, if all would be able to intermingle and partake of the same conditions. Therefore, there was a gulf between them. Bear in mind how the Lord said that, after death, Lazarus was carried by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham. (Lk. 16:22) By himself in the comparative density of his soul body, Lazarus was no more able to ascend into Paradise than the fish of the sea to soar up onto the mountains where the birds nest.
But in Paradise, there is a learning about the environment. In the fullness of their time, as Abraham has done, those of the Lazarus type learn to master the lower soul strata - even as some birds, such as geese, are masters of the high airways as well as the water depths. But such power and proficiency in travel cannot be granted the Lazarus types until they have come to understanding, rising far beyond the shallow and agonizing confines of the "me and mine" which are so ingrained within the realm of Lucifer, Otherwise, their paradise would soon be transformed into hell. In the parable, Abraham had entered into that understanding, being able to dispassionately behold his son suffering in the nether realm. Observe that we are not told of Lazarus, nor any of his bedfellows, beholding the rich man. In an earthly parallel, we understand that light penetrates the water depths and can be seen by those within the water, but the birds in the upper air see little, except the blackness of the ocean.