Here I would like to address "the nature of Man" and "the nature of God". Recently, upon reviewing some of C. S. Lewis' "Mere Chrisitianity", I realised anew that my view of this subject is significantly different from most Christian traditions. In fact, Lewis attempted to write in "Mere Christianity", as he said, only those views which were common to all Christian denominations. Yet mine differs significantly even from that. Yet, mine is based upon the Bible. I think that a humble and careful reader of this article should see that my view is a Christian view as well.
As a side note, let me say here that I think Lewis' writing is very very clear and easy to understand. In contrast, I am not succeeding in writing clearly and concisely. Yet, I think the substance of what I am saying is understandable for some readers who will ask the Lord to help and will take the time to study and sort out what is being said.
As I have said elsewhere in this blog, man consists of three parts: spirit, soul and body. In my view, this is true of non-Christian man as well as Christian Man. The spirit in each man is a single child of God. The body of man is a creature of God. The soul in man is a product of the interaction of spirit and the body. Salvation in Jesus Christ is manifold. It guarantees preservation of the soul body as a garment for the spirit, the resurrection of the body, the forgiveness of sins against the Lord, and deliverance from the Enemy.
The nature of God is a mature spirit Who is capable of incarnating in a body. Yet the nature of man is to be an immature spirit incarnated in a body. When the Son of God left the side of the Father in glory and became incarnate as a human in the womb of a virgin Mary, he was taking on a body. Yet, it is not, to me a "mystery" of two natures, human and divine. It is simply the incarnation of the great great Spirit incarnating in a body.
Sunday, September 11, 2011
Sunday, September 4, 2011
The Composition of Man: Spirit, Soul and Body
Although we have already posted on this subject, here following is my edited version of Markel Moen's writing on this subject (from his book, "Heaven and Hell"):
To understand "hell" and the teachings o fJesus concerning it, we must first understand the composition of man. So long as we do not understand such words as "soul" and "spirit", it is utterly impossible for us to understand the Truths as revealed by God, nor yet to grasp - even in a measure - the grand purpose of "hell."
It is the common error within Christendom to think of Soul and Spirit as synonymous terms. In this one terrific error rests man's failure to understand "hell" and God's eonian plan for man. [Editor's note: "eon" is the Greek word which means a time of unknown duration which has been mistranslated by proponents of "eternal torment" as "eternal."]
The Spirit-tutored apostle Paul wrote: "And I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and body be preserved blameless ----." - 1 Thes 4:23. Here we behold a THREEfold man: (1) body, (2) soul and (3) spirit. The same Truth is taught back through the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament.
Even in the account of Adam's creation, we find the BODY formed from the elements of EARTH, into the nostrils of which God BREATHED or EXPIRED (from within Himself) the breath of liveS and man became (or "generated") "a living SOUL." (Genesis 2:7). Who has ever heard, or read of God being a "soul", or yet a wind-bag? Repeatedly does Scripture speak of God as being SPIRIT, or A SPIRIT. Hence is He termed the "Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9).This the apostle based on Zech. 12:1 which declares that God "formed the SPIRIT of man within him."
Since we have His own revealed word that God is A SPIRIT, not a soul nor yet a wind-bag, then He had nothing but pure undefiled SPIRIT to exude into the head of Adam as the breath or distilation of LIFE, which in turn animated the body and generated therein "a living SOUL."
Clearly has He told us that all beget their won kind. God was no exception. Since He is SPIRIT, and SPIRIT is LIFE, then He had but LIFE-SPIRIT to impart into the body of flesh known as Adam. That SPIRIT did not become alive for it WAS LIFE; and that begotten spirit or portion of God-LIFE animated the physical body of Adam AND generated within him "a living SOUL."
The SPIRIT within Adam was a deathless as God Himself! IT had never been "created." But to the created and fashioned compositon known as Adam, God spoke saying: "In the day thou eatest therof THOU SHALT SURELY DIE."
In the day of his disobedience, Adam became spiritually defiled and therefore separated from intimate communion with God. Yet, Adam did not physically die until ... 930 years later. Now, THAT is interesting because we are told in Psalm 90:4 that A THOUSAND YEARS are but as ONE DAY with God. A rational parent would say what he means ... in a way which would be understood by his child. Adam, as the child of God, would be familiar with the language which God used to communicate to him. Adam would understand that, were he to eat of the forbidden tree, HIS BODY would die. And, true enough, Adam's physical body died within one "day" with God, as he died in 930 years after his disobedience. And since his "soul" (as distinct from spirit) was a part of the created Adam, that too came under the selfsame sentence unto death.
Much later as the descendants of Adam had become more concious of their "souls", God enlared on His declaration unto Adam: "THE SOUL that sins, it shall die," - Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
As we carefully study the substance of the chapter we find that God decreed LIFE unto those who would abide in righteousness, yet "the SOUL that sins it shall die." Yet none of the righteous ever LIVED indefinitely in the physical body. Wherefore we are forced to conclude that God meant precisely what He said that the "SOUL" of the sinner would DIE, but that the SOUL of the righteous would LIVE.
Precisely the same Truth had God revealed through Moses, and for which objective the entire system of elaborate sacrificial rites was established. In Leviticus 17:11 we read:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement FOR YOUR SOULS; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul."
That this was the common Jewish concept in the days of the Lord Jesus is clearly perceived from the conversation He had with the lawyer. Said the lawyer: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And the Lord answered: "What is written in the Law? HOW readest thou?" ---- Thereby clearly implying that LIFE beyond the present world was something to be had or entered into though a cerain WAY OF LIFE; and that the selfsame way of life was clearly taught in the Mosaic Law. (See Luke 10:25-26.) In verses 27-28 the thought is further strengthened and affirmed to be a positive Truth and reality by the Lord Jesus.
To betyter understand the inter-relationship between spirit, soul and body, let us consider spirit in its basically analogous element of FIRE. ("God is a consuming FIRE.") Fire is heat and light ("God is LIFE and LIGHT"). Yet a latent fire, or an uncontrolled fire is worthless (to man); it must be harnessed: it must be given an "engine" or a VEHICLE for expression. Harnessed in a directed throu such an "engine," fire may give off heat, light, energy, turning the vast wheels of industry.
Similarly with the beotten, naked spirit-FLAMES: children of the Spirit-Father: they need "engines", or VEHICLES through which to express their dormant potentials of the God-LIFE. To facilitate this, GOD WROUGHT HIS MASTERPIECE: the human body. Here was an "engine" so marvelously fashioned that it could be used by the indwelling spirit in ten thousand ways and more! Yet it enshrined one weakness: the susceptibility to disobedience unto the Divine Parent. Thus when the Law unto Life became broken through disobedience, the life-symphony of the body was also broken, leading to its speedy "death." Thus would the spirit again be precipitated back into its original NAKED estate unless it could be provided with a doby surviving the physical death.
This God achieved, and we are told about in in Gen. 2:7, where the God-spirit exuded into Adam, GENERATING in him " a living SOUL."
[These excerpts are to be continued, hopefully, at a near-future date here on this blog.]
To understand "hell" and the teachings o fJesus concerning it, we must first understand the composition of man. So long as we do not understand such words as "soul" and "spirit", it is utterly impossible for us to understand the Truths as revealed by God, nor yet to grasp - even in a measure - the grand purpose of "hell."
It is the common error within Christendom to think of Soul and Spirit as synonymous terms. In this one terrific error rests man's failure to understand "hell" and God's eonian plan for man. [Editor's note: "eon" is the Greek word which means a time of unknown duration which has been mistranslated by proponents of "eternal torment" as "eternal."]
The Spirit-tutored apostle Paul wrote: "And I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and body be preserved blameless ----." - 1 Thes 4:23. Here we behold a THREEfold man: (1) body, (2) soul and (3) spirit. The same Truth is taught back through the Hebrew Scriptures of the Old Testament.
Even in the account of Adam's creation, we find the BODY formed from the elements of EARTH, into the nostrils of which God BREATHED or EXPIRED (from within Himself) the breath of liveS and man became (or "generated") "a living SOUL." (Genesis 2:7). Who has ever heard, or read of God being a "soul", or yet a wind-bag? Repeatedly does Scripture speak of God as being SPIRIT, or A SPIRIT. Hence is He termed the "Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9).This the apostle based on Zech. 12:1 which declares that God "formed the SPIRIT of man within him."
Since we have His own revealed word that God is A SPIRIT, not a soul nor yet a wind-bag, then He had nothing but pure undefiled SPIRIT to exude into the head of Adam as the breath or distilation of LIFE, which in turn animated the body and generated therein "a living SOUL."
Clearly has He told us that all beget their won kind. God was no exception. Since He is SPIRIT, and SPIRIT is LIFE, then He had but LIFE-SPIRIT to impart into the body of flesh known as Adam. That SPIRIT did not become alive for it WAS LIFE; and that begotten spirit or portion of God-LIFE animated the physical body of Adam AND generated within him "a living SOUL."
The SPIRIT within Adam was a deathless as God Himself! IT had never been "created." But to the created and fashioned compositon known as Adam, God spoke saying: "In the day thou eatest therof THOU SHALT SURELY DIE."
In the day of his disobedience, Adam became spiritually defiled and therefore separated from intimate communion with God. Yet, Adam did not physically die until ... 930 years later. Now, THAT is interesting because we are told in Psalm 90:4 that A THOUSAND YEARS are but as ONE DAY with God. A rational parent would say what he means ... in a way which would be understood by his child. Adam, as the child of God, would be familiar with the language which God used to communicate to him. Adam would understand that, were he to eat of the forbidden tree, HIS BODY would die. And, true enough, Adam's physical body died within one "day" with God, as he died in 930 years after his disobedience. And since his "soul" (as distinct from spirit) was a part of the created Adam, that too came under the selfsame sentence unto death.
Much later as the descendants of Adam had become more concious of their "souls", God enlared on His declaration unto Adam: "THE SOUL that sins, it shall die," - Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
As we carefully study the substance of the chapter we find that God decreed LIFE unto those who would abide in righteousness, yet "the SOUL that sins it shall die." Yet none of the righteous ever LIVED indefinitely in the physical body. Wherefore we are forced to conclude that God meant precisely what He said that the "SOUL" of the sinner would DIE, but that the SOUL of the righteous would LIVE.
Precisely the same Truth had God revealed through Moses, and for which objective the entire system of elaborate sacrificial rites was established. In Leviticus 17:11 we read:
"For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement FOR YOUR SOULS; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul."
That this was the common Jewish concept in the days of the Lord Jesus is clearly perceived from the conversation He had with the lawyer. Said the lawyer: "What shall I do to inherit eternal life?" And the Lord answered: "What is written in the Law? HOW readest thou?" ---- Thereby clearly implying that LIFE beyond the present world was something to be had or entered into though a cerain WAY OF LIFE; and that the selfsame way of life was clearly taught in the Mosaic Law. (See Luke 10:25-26.) In verses 27-28 the thought is further strengthened and affirmed to be a positive Truth and reality by the Lord Jesus.
To betyter understand the inter-relationship between spirit, soul and body, let us consider spirit in its basically analogous element of FIRE. ("God is a consuming FIRE.") Fire is heat and light ("God is LIFE and LIGHT"). Yet a latent fire, or an uncontrolled fire is worthless (to man); it must be harnessed: it must be given an "engine" or a VEHICLE for expression. Harnessed in a directed throu such an "engine," fire may give off heat, light, energy, turning the vast wheels of industry.
Similarly with the beotten, naked spirit-FLAMES: children of the Spirit-Father: they need "engines", or VEHICLES through which to express their dormant potentials of the God-LIFE. To facilitate this, GOD WROUGHT HIS MASTERPIECE: the human body. Here was an "engine" so marvelously fashioned that it could be used by the indwelling spirit in ten thousand ways and more! Yet it enshrined one weakness: the susceptibility to disobedience unto the Divine Parent. Thus when the Law unto Life became broken through disobedience, the life-symphony of the body was also broken, leading to its speedy "death." Thus would the spirit again be precipitated back into its original NAKED estate unless it could be provided with a doby surviving the physical death.
This God achieved, and we are told about in in Gen. 2:7, where the God-spirit exuded into Adam, GENERATING in him " a living SOUL."
[These excerpts are to be continued, hopefully, at a near-future date here on this blog.]
"Eternal Hell" and "Eternal Reign of Christ"
May I present to you an excerpt of the book "Heaven and Hell" by Markel Moen:
One point which is presented by supporters of a doctrine of "eternal hell" is as follows. Since the "eternal" nature of hell is couched in the same language as is the Christian's "eternal reign" with Christ, then it follows - say they - that since our life with Christ is to be "eternal", so similarly must we understand the "eternal" nature of suffering in "hell." This may sound plausible and be accepted when speaking to heads as empty as their own, yet the "argument" does not stand up to scrutiny in the light of Scripture analysis. And its disposition is simple:
Saint Paul (generally recognized by all Christians as an authority by virtue of inspiration), writing about this very "reign with Christ, said: "Then cometh THE END, when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign TILL He hath put all enemies under His feet." --- 1 Cor. 15:24-25.
There you have it in language simple enough for any child to understand, that THE "REIGN" BY CHRIST is to be of LIMITED duration, COMING TO A TERMINATION at some future date when He shall have put down all rule, having "overcome the last enemy - which is death.
Wherefore, since in the plainest of language and indisputable terms we are told that Christ's "reign" is to be of LIMITED duration, then we are forced to admit that the selfsame "eternal" (eonian or age-lasting) extent of suffering in hell, is similarly LIMITED.
One point which is presented by supporters of a doctrine of "eternal hell" is as follows. Since the "eternal" nature of hell is couched in the same language as is the Christian's "eternal reign" with Christ, then it follows - say they - that since our life with Christ is to be "eternal", so similarly must we understand the "eternal" nature of suffering in "hell." This may sound plausible and be accepted when speaking to heads as empty as their own, yet the "argument" does not stand up to scrutiny in the light of Scripture analysis. And its disposition is simple:
Saint Paul (generally recognized by all Christians as an authority by virtue of inspiration), writing about this very "reign with Christ, said: "Then cometh THE END, when He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign TILL He hath put all enemies under His feet." --- 1 Cor. 15:24-25.
There you have it in language simple enough for any child to understand, that THE "REIGN" BY CHRIST is to be of LIMITED duration, COMING TO A TERMINATION at some future date when He shall have put down all rule, having "overcome the last enemy - which is death.
Wherefore, since in the plainest of language and indisputable terms we are told that Christ's "reign" is to be of LIMITED duration, then we are forced to admit that the selfsame "eternal" (eonian or age-lasting) extent of suffering in hell, is similarly LIMITED.
Sunday, December 20, 2009
Definition of "Remedialism" - a Christian theological point of view
This brand of Christianity which I have called "Remedialism" is a view that our Father begot us as children of Him destined to become like Him ... and that He has guaranteed that all His children will arrive at unity with Him.
In this current era, the main thing all human beings need to learn is to receive Jesus as personal Savior of your soul. The word of Jesus, the blood of Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus will wash anyone who comes to Him and will keep that person from having to suffer the loss of his soul after the dying of his body.
Secondly, after believing into Jesus enough to have one's soul saved from going to "hell", we each need to walk with the Lord and be overcomers, built with other believers in Christ, until we come to maturity.
Monday, May 25, 2009
If These Things are True, Why Does the Bible Not Say So Plainly?
The Bible does not say very much plainly about anything except historical facts. Most doctrinal truth is hidden as treasure for the zealous student to dig and discover.
I can quote a couple of passages on this:
It is the glory of Elohim [God] to conceal a matter;
it is the glory of kings to investigate a matter.
[Proverbs 25: 2, Concordant Literal Version (CLV) ]
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
[Mark 4:11, 12. (King James Version) ]
And Psalm 1 says:
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
[Psalm 1:1-5. (KJV) ]
In the three above-quoted Scriptures, we can see that God uses encryption ... in the form of parable in order to hide truth from the wicked and to bless those who dilligently seek Him.
The truths about the purpose of suffering, death, and the prison known as the grave or "hell", have been mysteries to all but the few who dilligently seek to know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I hope that helps satisfy some reader's hunger for a beginning at studying these matters.
--Remedialist
I can quote a couple of passages on this:
It is the glory of Elohim [God] to conceal a matter;
it is the glory of kings to investigate a matter.
[Proverbs 25: 2, Concordant Literal Version (CLV) ]
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
[Mark 4:11, 12. (King James Version) ]
And Psalm 1 says:
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
[Psalm 1:1-5. (KJV) ]
In the three above-quoted Scriptures, we can see that God uses encryption ... in the form of parable in order to hide truth from the wicked and to bless those who dilligently seek Him.
The truths about the purpose of suffering, death, and the prison known as the grave or "hell", have been mysteries to all but the few who dilligently seek to know the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I hope that helps satisfy some reader's hunger for a beginning at studying these matters.
--Remedialist
Sunday, May 3, 2009
General Stuff
This post is informal. It may contain ideas I could refine later.
This blog has been at a standstill... because I have not been aware of what I could say patiently with plenty of Scriptural backing... which would be received by someone out there in internet land. Here I hope to begin to reach a bit of forward momentum. There is someone somewhere who can benefit from some of this stuff.
I am aware that, for 99.99% of the potential audience out there, nothing I say is going to be well-received. Little I say will be understood. Yet, I must try to reach someone who is hungry for the Biblical truths of Remedialism.
Some high priority concepts:
The Remedialist doctrine has some first principles without which the whole message is misunderstood.
Jesus is equal to God. This is important in our Remedialist doctrine. True, the Father is greater than the Son. But Jesus is God. He is my God... and I hope He is - or will become - yours.
God offers proof of the truth. The Holy Scriptures which we have at hand are rich material for research which can help us find faith and truth. The individual can ask for proof from God. God will provide a measure of proof...just as He did for Thomas.
God is a Father of spirits; we (humans) are incarnate children of the Father. Technically, Jesus is our father. "The" Father is our grandfather. That is my conviction... but, if I am ever proven mistaken on that point, this would not collapse my whole worldview or theology. The main point is that each human is a spirit clothed in a body.
Man is tripartite: spirit, soul, and body. Knowledge of this concept is not required for "salvation" but is required if one is to understand more than a little bit about human life and the Bible.
Salvation from hell is just one part of what Jesus does for a believer. The reason for our existence is for us to learn and grow - as do children - into the likeness and image of our Father. Our father is God. We are growing to be like Him (though never going to catch up with Him). Jesus saves us from the pit of "hell" through faith in Him. Yet perfection is a long road ahead. The path to maturity is the Path which is Jesus. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We who believe have only begun to follow that path.
Hell is really the pits and we want people to avoid that. The Bible is evangelistic. The New Testament has much to say about calling people to be rescued from going to hell. Even though Remedialist doctrine, Bible-based, firmly shows that hell is not forever, yet hell is a prison and a pain we would like everyone to avoid. The way to avoid a term in the pit is to believe in Jesus as your personal saviour. He suffered on the cross for you. His blood washes you from whatever sins you confess to Him. Because your sins are washed away you are guaranteed that you will go to Paradise rather than the pit if you die.
We recommend the website http://hopebeyondhell.net/unity.php and the book, Hope Beyond Hell. The gist of it agrees with our Remedialist doctrine as it addresses the issues of God's love, and the limited duration of hell.
We recommend Watchman Nees exposition of the tripartite nature of man (spirit, soul, and body.)
Thanks! God bless your quest for truth. Send us questions at our Contact address for this blog.
This blog has been at a standstill... because I have not been aware of what I could say patiently with plenty of Scriptural backing... which would be received by someone out there in internet land. Here I hope to begin to reach a bit of forward momentum. There is someone somewhere who can benefit from some of this stuff.
I am aware that, for 99.99% of the potential audience out there, nothing I say is going to be well-received. Little I say will be understood. Yet, I must try to reach someone who is hungry for the Biblical truths of Remedialism.
Some high priority concepts:
The Remedialist doctrine has some first principles without which the whole message is misunderstood.
Jesus is equal to God. This is important in our Remedialist doctrine. True, the Father is greater than the Son. But Jesus is God. He is my God... and I hope He is - or will become - yours.
God offers proof of the truth. The Holy Scriptures which we have at hand are rich material for research which can help us find faith and truth. The individual can ask for proof from God. God will provide a measure of proof...just as He did for Thomas.
God is a Father of spirits; we (humans) are incarnate children of the Father. Technically, Jesus is our father. "The" Father is our grandfather. That is my conviction... but, if I am ever proven mistaken on that point, this would not collapse my whole worldview or theology. The main point is that each human is a spirit clothed in a body.
Man is tripartite: spirit, soul, and body. Knowledge of this concept is not required for "salvation" but is required if one is to understand more than a little bit about human life and the Bible.
Salvation from hell is just one part of what Jesus does for a believer. The reason for our existence is for us to learn and grow - as do children - into the likeness and image of our Father. Our father is God. We are growing to be like Him (though never going to catch up with Him). Jesus saves us from the pit of "hell" through faith in Him. Yet perfection is a long road ahead. The path to maturity is the Path which is Jesus. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We who believe have only begun to follow that path.
Hell is really the pits and we want people to avoid that. The Bible is evangelistic. The New Testament has much to say about calling people to be rescued from going to hell. Even though Remedialist doctrine, Bible-based, firmly shows that hell is not forever, yet hell is a prison and a pain we would like everyone to avoid. The way to avoid a term in the pit is to believe in Jesus as your personal saviour. He suffered on the cross for you. His blood washes you from whatever sins you confess to Him. Because your sins are washed away you are guaranteed that you will go to Paradise rather than the pit if you die.
We recommend the website http://hopebeyondhell.net/unity.php and the book, Hope Beyond Hell. The gist of it agrees with our Remedialist doctrine as it addresses the issues of God's love, and the limited duration of hell.
We recommend Watchman Nees exposition of the tripartite nature of man (spirit, soul, and body.)
Thanks! God bless your quest for truth. Send us questions at our Contact address for this blog.
Friday, May 1, 2009
Looking for a Reason to Believe in a Loving Father, a Loving Jesus, and a Loving Holy Spirit?
Our Father is waiting for His lost children to turn toward home.
The churches have told people that there is an eternal place of torment created by the Father for anyone who fails to believe in Jesus before he dies.
The churches, on this point, have been wrong.
Our Father is in the business of TRAINING HIS CHILDREN.
As we all know, training is accomplished through rewards and punishments. Yet, the traditional teaching of the churches has been that TOTAL reward of TOTAL good is for those who merely believe in Jesus, while TOTAL torment for TOTAL of the future is for those who fail to believe in Jesus before they die.
That kind of tradition makes it hard for some to believe in Jesus and salvation in Him.
The purpose of this blog is to begin to introduce people to a God who will be training His children for thousands and thousands of years. There is, a reward of Paradise and heaven for believers. Yet these rewards are only one or two steps on the path forward. There will be much training ahead for those in Paradise and Heaven.
God has the pit as a punishment ... for the sake of remedial punishment and for the sake of removing the old dirty garment in order to prepare His child to start a day in school again.
This is the truth. Believe it.
Timotheus Wood
The churches have told people that there is an eternal place of torment created by the Father for anyone who fails to believe in Jesus before he dies.
The churches, on this point, have been wrong.
Our Father is in the business of TRAINING HIS CHILDREN.
As we all know, training is accomplished through rewards and punishments. Yet, the traditional teaching of the churches has been that TOTAL reward of TOTAL good is for those who merely believe in Jesus, while TOTAL torment for TOTAL of the future is for those who fail to believe in Jesus before they die.
That kind of tradition makes it hard for some to believe in Jesus and salvation in Him.
The purpose of this blog is to begin to introduce people to a God who will be training His children for thousands and thousands of years. There is, a reward of Paradise and heaven for believers. Yet these rewards are only one or two steps on the path forward. There will be much training ahead for those in Paradise and Heaven.
God has the pit as a punishment ... for the sake of remedial punishment and for the sake of removing the old dirty garment in order to prepare His child to start a day in school again.
This is the truth. Believe it.
Timotheus Wood
Defining Tri-partite Man as "Spirit, Soul, and Body"
Defining Tri-partite Man as "Spirit, Soul, and Body"
Are you seeking to understand our Father-in-heaven's ways with man (and with angels)?One very important Biblical concept to ponder is the three-part nature of man. Each one of mankind is a spirit, a soul, and a body.A great writing on this is in the first couple of chapters or so of Watchan Nee's book titled "The Spritual Man." Currently this book is available for free as an online book athttp://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968v1c1.htmAlthough we are not affiliated with the "worldinvisible" organization which posted this at their online library, we appreciate the free service they have done.The first two paragraphs of that writing are as follows:
SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY
The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic-soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God's revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man's outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from eachother. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body.It treats man, rather, as tripartite-spirit, soul and body. I Thessalonians 5.23 reads: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts. The Apostle Paul refers here to the complete sanctification of believers, "sanctify you wholly. "According to the Apostle, how is a person wholly sanctified? By his spirit and soul and body being kept. From this we can easily understand that the whole person comprises these three parts. This verse also makes a distinction between spirit and soul; otherwise, Paul would have said simply "your soul." Since God has distinguished the human spirit from the human soul, we conclude that man is composed of not two, but three, parts; spirit, soul and body.
Is it a matter of any consequence to divide spirit and soul? It is an issue of supreme importance for it affects tremendously the spiritual life of a believer. How can a believer understand spiritual life if he does not know what is the extent of the realm of the spirit? Without such understanding how can he grow spiritually? To fail to distinguish between spirit and soul is fatal to spiritual maturity. Christians often account what is soulical. as spiritual, and thus they remain in a soulish state and seek not what is really spiritual. How can we escape loss if we confuse what God has divided?
Are you seeking to understand our Father-in-heaven's ways with man (and with angels)?One very important Biblical concept to ponder is the three-part nature of man. Each one of mankind is a spirit, a soul, and a body.A great writing on this is in the first couple of chapters or so of Watchan Nee's book titled "The Spritual Man." Currently this book is available for free as an online book athttp://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968v1c1.htmAlthough we are not affiliated with the "worldinvisible" organization which posted this at their online library, we appreciate the free service they have done.The first two paragraphs of that writing are as follows:
SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY
The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic-soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God's revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man's outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from eachother. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body.It treats man, rather, as tripartite-spirit, soul and body. I Thessalonians 5.23 reads: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts. The Apostle Paul refers here to the complete sanctification of believers, "sanctify you wholly. "According to the Apostle, how is a person wholly sanctified? By his spirit and soul and body being kept. From this we can easily understand that the whole person comprises these three parts. This verse also makes a distinction between spirit and soul; otherwise, Paul would have said simply "your soul." Since God has distinguished the human spirit from the human soul, we conclude that man is composed of not two, but three, parts; spirit, soul and body.
Is it a matter of any consequence to divide spirit and soul? It is an issue of supreme importance for it affects tremendously the spiritual life of a believer. How can a believer understand spiritual life if he does not know what is the extent of the realm of the spirit? Without such understanding how can he grow spiritually? To fail to distinguish between spirit and soul is fatal to spiritual maturity. Christians often account what is soulical. as spiritual, and thus they remain in a soulish state and seek not what is really spiritual. How can we escape loss if we confuse what God has divided?
Remedialist - Interfacing a Dying Age
Remedialist - Interfacing a Dying Age
Welcome to the Remedialist blog, dedicated to a God Who is a Father ... a truly good Father ... who is full of love as well as holiness and righteousness.This is a blog to introduce seekers of the truth to the true meaning of God as a Father Who will bring up all His children (including you, me, and all the good and evil children) into His ways of truth, love, and goodness.The editor does not claim to know everything... but he knows more about this one subject than 99.9% of all people on the planet.
Welcome to the Remedialist blog, dedicated to a God Who is a Father ... a truly good Father ... who is full of love as well as holiness and righteousness.This is a blog to introduce seekers of the truth to the true meaning of God as a Father Who will bring up all His children (including you, me, and all the good and evil children) into His ways of truth, love, and goodness.The editor does not claim to know everything... but he knows more about this one subject than 99.9% of all people on the planet.
Saturday, February 14, 2009
God and Time
Hey... there are vast amounts of things I do not know.
But... I have some partial knowledge that goes far beyond what most people know.
Yet... the important thing is to know Jesus. And, knowing Him, to know His Father and the Holy Spirit (who is ministering in the earth now as Jesus' representative.)
That said... I want to proclaim - in case anyone can be reached - some of the truths I know about God's ways.
GOD AND TIME:
Where did theologians and the mass Christian culture get the idea that God does not have any experience of time? I am sure that Yahweh God (which is Jesus and/or the Father) experiences time. I know of no Hebrew or Greek word which is used to express utter timelessness.
Think of it this way: does not God ACT (that is, DO things)? Well, if God DOES something, then there a BEFORE and an AFTER for the doing of that thing. In other words, by stating that God acts, we have stated that there exists a linear measure. Any linear measure of action defines TIME.
So.... Genesis says, "In begining, God created heavens and earth." There you have it, God DID something. If we admit that He DID something, we admit that there is, for God, a "before" and an "after." So... in the first verse of our Holy Scripture we have the undeniable statement that God experiences time.
That said, it does not necessarily follow that God experiences time exactly as do humans.
Approach the subject from a different Scripture reference. Paul says in Romans chapter 1 that the invisible things of God are clearly perceived through the things which have been made. Well.... we know that time exists. If our experience of "time" has been made by God, then this demonstrates something to us of "the invisible things of God." If we experience time, then there must be "time" in God's experience. We must, as His children, experience the passage of time, so that when we become little Sons of God, then we will be adept and dealing with time.
Remedialist
But... I have some partial knowledge that goes far beyond what most people know.
Yet... the important thing is to know Jesus. And, knowing Him, to know His Father and the Holy Spirit (who is ministering in the earth now as Jesus' representative.)
That said... I want to proclaim - in case anyone can be reached - some of the truths I know about God's ways.
GOD AND TIME:
Where did theologians and the mass Christian culture get the idea that God does not have any experience of time? I am sure that Yahweh God (which is Jesus and/or the Father) experiences time. I know of no Hebrew or Greek word which is used to express utter timelessness.
Think of it this way: does not God ACT (that is, DO things)? Well, if God DOES something, then there a BEFORE and an AFTER for the doing of that thing. In other words, by stating that God acts, we have stated that there exists a linear measure. Any linear measure of action defines TIME.
So.... Genesis says, "In begining, God created heavens and earth." There you have it, God DID something. If we admit that He DID something, we admit that there is, for God, a "before" and an "after." So... in the first verse of our Holy Scripture we have the undeniable statement that God experiences time.
That said, it does not necessarily follow that God experiences time exactly as do humans.
Approach the subject from a different Scripture reference. Paul says in Romans chapter 1 that the invisible things of God are clearly perceived through the things which have been made. Well.... we know that time exists. If our experience of "time" has been made by God, then this demonstrates something to us of "the invisible things of God." If we experience time, then there must be "time" in God's experience. We must, as His children, experience the passage of time, so that when we become little Sons of God, then we will be adept and dealing with time.
Remedialist
Central Points for this Blog
To keep the main points for this blog in mind, I will state them here even though it may have already been said.
1. God is Father of spirits. [Visualise a "spirit" as being a flame in the form of a human.] An individual "spirit" is basically like an angel. It has intelligence and capabilities within its realm assigned to it by the Father.
A verse saying literally that God is the "father of spirits" is in Hebrews 12. There the Lord says we should be subject to the Father of spirits Who disciplines us for our good.
2. Man is a three-part being now that God has incarnated us into human bodies. Man is spirit, soul, and body. This is summed up in a verse in 1 Thessalonias 5, but it is evident throughout the Bible. See teachings by Watchman Nee for alot of widely published exposition of this. A major concept for this is found in the study of the Genesis 2 account in which God formed Adam of the dust and "breathed" (literally, "spirited") into Adam the spirit of lives and man generated a living soul. God is not a wind-bag, so we know He did not "breathe" wind into Adam. God is a Spirit. The Hebrew word for wind and breath is the same as the word for spirit (nephesh), so we take its meaning in the context of Genesis chapter 2 to be the act of placing spirit into Adam. God does not "create" spirit but begets it. He IS spirit and He begets spirit. (Like begets like.)
3. The purpose of having His children incarnated into human bodies and souls is to give them vehicles for expression and education. The body and soul which are like automobiles for the inner spirit-child-of-God accelerate the learning curve of that child of God. If we were only a spirit, having no body, our learning speed would be slow. Learning is increased because the quantity and intensity of experience is increased by being incarnated in a body and a soul.
4. God warned Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, "for on the day you eat of it, you shall die." God did not warn Adam of going to hell forever and ever, for that was not a possibility.
The theif is Satan. Satan comes "to steal, kill, and destroy." Satan stole Adam's inheritance in the garden. Satan killed Adam and Eve. And Satan destroys souls in Sheol (which is the grave or the unseen).
5. Father's goal for mankind is that mankind should retain soul and body and use them to obey Father and grow up in wisdom and knowledge and worship of Him.
Thanks, reader, for trying to understand.
Sincerely,
Remedialist
1. God is Father of spirits. [Visualise a "spirit" as being a flame in the form of a human.] An individual "spirit" is basically like an angel. It has intelligence and capabilities within its realm assigned to it by the Father.
A verse saying literally that God is the "father of spirits" is in Hebrews 12. There the Lord says we should be subject to the Father of spirits Who disciplines us for our good.
2. Man is a three-part being now that God has incarnated us into human bodies. Man is spirit, soul, and body. This is summed up in a verse in 1 Thessalonias 5, but it is evident throughout the Bible. See teachings by Watchman Nee for alot of widely published exposition of this. A major concept for this is found in the study of the Genesis 2 account in which God formed Adam of the dust and "breathed" (literally, "spirited") into Adam the spirit of lives and man generated a living soul. God is not a wind-bag, so we know He did not "breathe" wind into Adam. God is a Spirit. The Hebrew word for wind and breath is the same as the word for spirit (nephesh), so we take its meaning in the context of Genesis chapter 2 to be the act of placing spirit into Adam. God does not "create" spirit but begets it. He IS spirit and He begets spirit. (Like begets like.)
3. The purpose of having His children incarnated into human bodies and souls is to give them vehicles for expression and education. The body and soul which are like automobiles for the inner spirit-child-of-God accelerate the learning curve of that child of God. If we were only a spirit, having no body, our learning speed would be slow. Learning is increased because the quantity and intensity of experience is increased by being incarnated in a body and a soul.
4. God warned Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, "for on the day you eat of it, you shall die." God did not warn Adam of going to hell forever and ever, for that was not a possibility.
The theif is Satan. Satan comes "to steal, kill, and destroy." Satan stole Adam's inheritance in the garden. Satan killed Adam and Eve. And Satan destroys souls in Sheol (which is the grave or the unseen).
5. Father's goal for mankind is that mankind should retain soul and body and use them to obey Father and grow up in wisdom and knowledge and worship of Him.
Thanks, reader, for trying to understand.
Sincerely,
Remedialist
Burning the chaff with UNEXTINGUISHED fire
As a further evidence for what I said in post on the unquenched fire, here is what Jesus said. He said there is chaff which shall be burnt with UNEXTINGUISHED fire.
See Mt. 3:12, Lu. 3:17
Well, this makes a case for the "fire" of the Lake of Fire which consumes until there is no more fuel to burn, at which time the pain ceases.
The alternate view of Isaiah 66:24 - that the fire of the man is his own spirit and not an outside force - is still appropriate for Isaiah 66:24, but not for the "fire" of Gehenna or the "fire" of the Lake of Fire.
See Mt. 3:12, Lu. 3:17
Well, this makes a case for the "fire" of the Lake of Fire which consumes until there is no more fuel to burn, at which time the pain ceases.
The alternate view of Isaiah 66:24 - that the fire of the man is his own spirit and not an outside force - is still appropriate for Isaiah 66:24, but not for the "fire" of Gehenna or the "fire" of the Lake of Fire.
Worms that die not, and fire that is not quenched.
One reason I have been not posting much is because of the temptation when posting to pretend to know too much too certainly. In order to get someone to believe you, you need to act like you are quite certain.
My certainty about a few things is very high. My certainty about other things is less. If I were to write/talk about only the most certain things, I would not have much to say. I would say that Jesus is Savior of those who put their trust in Him. And a few other truths that are certain enough.
I am also quite certain there is no everlasting torture of anyone. But how to demonstrate that to others sometimes involves a bit of speculation with a bit of light on Scripture.
A case in point is the discussion of that worm which dieth not and that fire which is not quenched. Does one reader in a million actually think about the words of Scripture which are involved in that? Check out Isaiah 66:24 at www.blueletterbible.org
Isa 66:24
And they shall go forth 3318 , and look 7200 upon the carcases 6297 of the men 582 that have transgressed 6586 against me: for their worm 8438 shall not die 4191 , neither shall their fire 784 be quenched 3518 ; and they shall be an abhorring 1860 unto all flesh 1320.
Let us think a moment. If a fire is not quenched, does that mean that the fuel it is burning must continue to exist (and be in pain) forever? Hmmmm. My answer is: Nope, I never saw fuel which never was consumed. I have seen fires which were not quenched, but the fuel burnt down to zero.
Has there ever been a worm whose food just regenerated again and again so that the worm could feed on the same food forever?
So, taking Isaiah 66:24 as holy Scripture, we believe there is a fire and a worm, but we absolutely have no indication that there is someone who is tormented forever by this fire and this worm.
What is more, there are details of these Scriptures which imply that there may be something more subtle - as there always is - taking place beyond the surface.
Look again at Isaiah 66:24, you see the word "t-h-e-i-r" twice. It is "their" fire and "their" worm. The fire and the worm BELONG to the ones who are being looked upon. If I am being burnt, the fire does not belong to me. If a carcass is being eaten by a worm, the worm does not belong to the carcass. Think about it. So.....this fire is not an outside agent acting upon the person, but is the possession of that person. The fire would seem to be the spirit of that person which never dies. The fire is not quenched... means the spirit of the person does not perish.
Is the "worm" an outside agent or is it the spirit of the person who has gone to hell? I lean toward seeing "their worm" as being the spirit of the person which remains after the body and soul have been killed and destroyed. Remember man is a three-part being. Man is "spirit, soul, and body." The body can be killed, the soul can be destroyed, but the spirit of the man lives. The spirit is that living being (child) which came from God.
Genesis says God breathed (spirited) into man the breath (spirit) of life. That is how we are children of God. The incarnate spirit is the child of God. The spirit is the fire which is not quenched and it also may be described as a worm which does not die.
The Lord said, in Isaiah 53, "I am a worm and no man." That is what Jesus became when His body was dead and His soul was poured out. He descended into Sheol (the grave) and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey God in the days of Noah. He was a spirit and no longer and incarnate man ... until the resurrection. Thus a "worm" in Isaiah 66:24 is a spirit of a man after it is denuded of the body and soul.
Look it up in Strong's Concordance online. The word "worm" is not always used in the same way. It is not even always the same Hebrew word. So... we must THINK with the HOLY SPIRIT of the Lord saving us and leading us.
Check out Job 25:6.
Job 25:6
How much less man 582, [that is] a worm 7415? and the son 1121 of man 120, [which is] a worm 8438?
Ah hah! Here we have a reference to a worm being a man! This is the #8438 worm. In contrast, the #7415 "worm" is alternately translated as a maggot. So things may be more complicated that anyone of us would like to admit.
So... if a man's worm does not die in Sheol, does that mean the man is being eaten by a worm "foever"? Or, more sensibly, does it probably mean that the spirit of the man lives on?
Remedialist
My certainty about a few things is very high. My certainty about other things is less. If I were to write/talk about only the most certain things, I would not have much to say. I would say that Jesus is Savior of those who put their trust in Him. And a few other truths that are certain enough.
I am also quite certain there is no everlasting torture of anyone. But how to demonstrate that to others sometimes involves a bit of speculation with a bit of light on Scripture.
A case in point is the discussion of that worm which dieth not and that fire which is not quenched. Does one reader in a million actually think about the words of Scripture which are involved in that? Check out Isaiah 66:24 at www.blueletterbible.org
Isa 66:24
And they shall go forth 3318 , and look 7200 upon the carcases 6297 of the men 582 that have transgressed 6586 against me: for their worm 8438 shall not die 4191 , neither shall their fire 784 be quenched 3518 ; and they shall be an abhorring 1860 unto all flesh 1320.
Let us think a moment. If a fire is not quenched, does that mean that the fuel it is burning must continue to exist (and be in pain) forever? Hmmmm. My answer is: Nope, I never saw fuel which never was consumed. I have seen fires which were not quenched, but the fuel burnt down to zero.
Has there ever been a worm whose food just regenerated again and again so that the worm could feed on the same food forever?
So, taking Isaiah 66:24 as holy Scripture, we believe there is a fire and a worm, but we absolutely have no indication that there is someone who is tormented forever by this fire and this worm.
What is more, there are details of these Scriptures which imply that there may be something more subtle - as there always is - taking place beyond the surface.
Look again at Isaiah 66:24, you see the word "t-h-e-i-r" twice. It is "their" fire and "their" worm. The fire and the worm BELONG to the ones who are being looked upon. If I am being burnt, the fire does not belong to me. If a carcass is being eaten by a worm, the worm does not belong to the carcass. Think about it. So.....this fire is not an outside agent acting upon the person, but is the possession of that person. The fire would seem to be the spirit of that person which never dies. The fire is not quenched... means the spirit of the person does not perish.
Is the "worm" an outside agent or is it the spirit of the person who has gone to hell? I lean toward seeing "their worm" as being the spirit of the person which remains after the body and soul have been killed and destroyed. Remember man is a three-part being. Man is "spirit, soul, and body." The body can be killed, the soul can be destroyed, but the spirit of the man lives. The spirit is that living being (child) which came from God.
Genesis says God breathed (spirited) into man the breath (spirit) of life. That is how we are children of God. The incarnate spirit is the child of God. The spirit is the fire which is not quenched and it also may be described as a worm which does not die.
The Lord said, in Isaiah 53, "I am a worm and no man." That is what Jesus became when His body was dead and His soul was poured out. He descended into Sheol (the grave) and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey God in the days of Noah. He was a spirit and no longer and incarnate man ... until the resurrection. Thus a "worm" in Isaiah 66:24 is a spirit of a man after it is denuded of the body and soul.
Look it up in Strong's Concordance online. The word "worm" is not always used in the same way. It is not even always the same Hebrew word. So... we must THINK with the HOLY SPIRIT of the Lord saving us and leading us.
Check out Job 25:6.
Job 25:6
How much less man 582, [that is] a worm 7415? and the son 1121 of man 120, [which is] a worm 8438?
Ah hah! Here we have a reference to a worm being a man! This is the #8438 worm. In contrast, the #7415 "worm" is alternately translated as a maggot. So things may be more complicated that anyone of us would like to admit.
So... if a man's worm does not die in Sheol, does that mean the man is being eaten by a worm "foever"? Or, more sensibly, does it probably mean that the spirit of the man lives on?
Remedialist
Sunday, December 21, 2008
None Can Cross the Great Chasm Between Paradise and Sheol
Looking at the Rich Man and Lazarus again. If we only think the way knees jerk as a reflex reaction, we may jump to the conclusion (like a frog) that absolutely NO ONE... EVER...IN ANY STATE WHATSOEVER...CROSSES from Heaven to Hell.
Here is the passage quoted again:
Here is the passage quoted again:
The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)
Luke:16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with thecrumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22"Now the poor man died and was carriedaway by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may crossover from there to us.'Taking the words for what they say, no one crosses between Hades and the bosom of Abraham.
The answer to this seeming problem lies in the fact that the prisoner in Hades will return to God the Father - not to Abraham's bosom in Paradise. Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 (in Context) The spirit, in this case, is not going to go up to see Abraham and Lazarus but is going to report to God. God will direct him where he must go from there.
We know from 2 Peter that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison which formerly did not obey God during the time of Noah. Obviously Jesus was able to go into Hades and come out into the earth plane and from there into heaven. So, we should not take Luke 16:26 too literally with regard to "none may crossover."
Remedialist
Friday, December 5, 2008
The Great Chasm Between the Rich Man and Lazarus
The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)
Luke:16:19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually
dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus was
laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the
crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were
coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried
away by the angels to Abraham's
bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during
your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but
now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides
all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who
wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross
over from there to us.'
The best wording I have found for the Remedialist doctrine concerning Luke 16:19-26 (see link at Luke 16:24-26 ) is part of an article written by a friend. It is as follows:
In earth life, one person may suffer from cancer and, another, tuberculosis and still another leprosy. In none of these does a normally rational person conclude that an infuriated God is seeking vengeance and inflicting torment. He recognizes that such illnesses and suffering are the natural outcome of the violation of the law of physical well-being. Similarly with the soul in Hades, it is but enduring the inevitable outcome of violating God's laws. (Ezek. 18:4) The soul dies because the rules for its health were not observed.
Father Abraham told the rich man that there was balance in God's plan for His offspring. (Lk. 16:25) But the Greek word translated "tormented" never should have been rendered in that way. At the worst, its meaning is pain. The lexicon gives the meanings of "pain of mind, grief, distress." However, the indoctrinated translators of Scripture lost no opportunity for paralyzing the people with stark terror of a demon-God. It should also be pointed out that the Greek word translated "torment" in Lk. 16:23 can lend itself to that rendering, yet that is not true to its original meaning. Originally it had to do with the applying of a touchstone to gold for trying its genuineness. By analogy and with reference to people, it had to do with cross-examination and/or the placing under duress to obtain a true confession.
In this parable, the Lord was pointing out how the rich man found himself in duress to obtain a true confession. This applies even to the trying of the gold with the touchstone, because gold symbolizes spirit. Here the spirit's genuineness and worth were being tried, as it was forced to shed its refuge of lies. It should be clear to any thinking person that the laws of God are designed to bring about balance. The rich man had enjoyed the good of the earth, though we may surmise that he misused the blessings. As a result, the balances swung toward the counterbalance beyond death. During the process, the rich man had ample time to reflect upon and come to an understanding of God's immutable laws of Truth and justice. During the earth life, Lazarus endured much, and yet through it he had found his Redeemer and his God, as shown in the meaning of his name--whom God helps. Thus, beyond death, the balances swung toward Lazarus being consoled.
EXPERIENCE IN PARADISE
Lazarus is a type for people who are “born-again” believers in Jesus, those who have formed a contract with the Lord during their earth-life. Father Abraham continued to explain that, between his own realm and the lower zone of the unsaved, there had been fixed a "great chasm" so that there was no passage from one zone to the other for dwellers in either zone. Of course, balance could not be realized by those in the unseen world, if all would be able to intermingle and partake of the same conditions. Therefore, there was a gulf between them. Bear in mind how the Lord said that, after death, Lazarus was carried by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham. (Lk. 16:22) By himself in the comparative density of his soul body, Lazarus was no more able to ascend into Paradise than the fish of the sea to soar up onto the mountains where the birds nest.
But in Paradise, there is a learning about the environment. In the fullness of their time, as Abraham has done, those of the Lazarus type learn to master the lower soul strata - even as some birds, such as geese, are masters of the high airways as well as the water depths. But such power and proficiency in travel cannot be granted the Lazarus types until they have come to understanding, rising far beyond the shallow and agonizing confines of the "me and mine" which are so ingrained within the realm of Lucifer, Otherwise, their paradise would soon be transformed into hell. In the parable, Abraham had entered into that understanding, being able to dispassionately behold his son suffering in the nether realm. Observe that we are not told of Lazarus, nor any of his bedfellows, beholding the rich man. In an earthly parallel, we understand that light penetrates the water depths and can be seen by those within the water, but the birds in the upper air see little, except the blackness of the ocean.
Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Where the Worm Dies Not, and the Fire is not Quenched
Keep in mind that mankind is "spirit, soul, and body." The soul and body are vehicles of expression ... robotic garments of sorts ... for the spirit person. We children of God would not learn nearly as quickly without bodies and souls surrounding our spirit-person. My opinion is we learn 100 times as fast with a body as do the angels which have only spirit.
The fire in Gehenna (a.k.a. "hell") is not put out ("quenched") ... but what about those whose souls are disintegrating in hell? Do they disintegrate forever? Or, do they disintegrate until the soul is gone and only the core of the spirit remains.
Remember Jesus' words, "You will not come out until you have paid the last farthing." Certainly if we throw a stick of wood into a hot furnace, a cup of water will not quench the fire. But the stick of wood will not burn forever. The soul which is disintegrating in hell will disintegrate only until it is destroyed. That leaves the spirit-person naked, but able to be reassigned to a life experience.
What then is "the worm" that dies not? "Worm" is the metaphor for the spirit person. The spirit, when naked is humble like a worm. The spirit of a man is undying and cannot be destroyed. Yet, there is no reason to expect this person to be tormented "forever" but only until the punishment fits the crime.
"The soul that sins shall die." The Lord did not say that the soul that sins shall be tormented forever. "Soul" [nephesh] can be the whole sentient being of man, including body and soul. The body dies on earth as a result of sin. The inner garment, the "soul", disintegrates in hell. The spirit dies not but must have a chance somewhere to return to the Father's house as did the prodigal son.
Yet, this is not to belittle our salvation. Jesus paid a great price to purchase salvation which is received only by those who believe. We who believe in Jesus are saved from going to hell and from losing our soul garments. Salvation in Jesus gives us a resurrection back onto earth in a human body... ready to go on learning to serve the Lord.
Remedialist
The fire in Gehenna (a.k.a. "hell") is not put out ("quenched") ... but what about those whose souls are disintegrating in hell? Do they disintegrate forever? Or, do they disintegrate until the soul is gone and only the core of the spirit remains.
Remember Jesus' words, "You will not come out until you have paid the last farthing." Certainly if we throw a stick of wood into a hot furnace, a cup of water will not quench the fire. But the stick of wood will not burn forever. The soul which is disintegrating in hell will disintegrate only until it is destroyed. That leaves the spirit-person naked, but able to be reassigned to a life experience.
What then is "the worm" that dies not? "Worm" is the metaphor for the spirit person. The spirit, when naked is humble like a worm. The spirit of a man is undying and cannot be destroyed. Yet, there is no reason to expect this person to be tormented "forever" but only until the punishment fits the crime.
"The soul that sins shall die." The Lord did not say that the soul that sins shall be tormented forever. "Soul" [nephesh] can be the whole sentient being of man, including body and soul. The body dies on earth as a result of sin. The inner garment, the "soul", disintegrates in hell. The spirit dies not but must have a chance somewhere to return to the Father's house as did the prodigal son.
Yet, this is not to belittle our salvation. Jesus paid a great price to purchase salvation which is received only by those who believe. We who believe in Jesus are saved from going to hell and from losing our soul garments. Salvation in Jesus gives us a resurrection back onto earth in a human body... ready to go on learning to serve the Lord.
Remedialist
Sunday, November 16, 2008
Why not expect TIME in heaven?
ANOTHER THING CONCERNING THE IDEA OF "ETERNITY"
Hello to readers. In a recent post at http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/doctrine-debate-forum/314-hope-beyond-hell-3.html#post1360, I have begun a reply to Rick on the subject of the translation of the Greek AION (Strong's Greek word G165 165, and see G166) and the Hebrew OLAM (Strongs H5769 ... 5769).
On that subject, I would like to rhetorically ask the question, "Why should we expect to experience 'eternity' in heaven ... since heaven is part of the creation of God which shall pass away?"
As we know from Scripture, heaven and earth are created places and they shall pass away. The Genesis account describes God creating the heavens and earth ... as well as all that is in them ... over the course of time. Should we not then expect to experience time in heaven? And, if we experience time, are we experiencing "eternity"? If heaven shall pass away, how can it be said, when heaven has passed away, that we experienced eternity during the duration of our life in heaven?Instead of "eternity", I think we should look forward to experiencing PROGRESS and EFFORT over TIME in HEAVEN (as well as on earth during the Kingdom ages yet to unfold upon the earth.)
Hello to readers. In a recent post at http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/doctrine-debate-forum/314-hope-beyond-hell-3.html#post1360, I have begun a reply to Rick on the subject of the translation of the Greek AION (Strong's Greek word G165 165, and see G166) and the Hebrew OLAM (Strongs H5769 ... 5769).
On that subject, I would like to rhetorically ask the question, "Why should we expect to experience 'eternity' in heaven ... since heaven is part of the creation of God which shall pass away?"
As we know from Scripture, heaven and earth are created places and they shall pass away. The Genesis account describes God creating the heavens and earth ... as well as all that is in them ... over the course of time. Should we not then expect to experience time in heaven? And, if we experience time, are we experiencing "eternity"? If heaven shall pass away, how can it be said, when heaven has passed away, that we experienced eternity during the duration of our life in heaven?Instead of "eternity", I think we should look forward to experiencing PROGRESS and EFFORT over TIME in HEAVEN (as well as on earth during the Kingdom ages yet to unfold upon the earth.)
"Hell"
Concerning "Hell", I would begin to discuss it by saying that we need to see that mankind is a three-part being: spirit, soul, and body as mention by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:23
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot.
Timotheus Wood
"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"
I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot.
Timotheus Wood
Some Basic Beginings
A welcome to Christians (as well as other readers).
If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.
My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well. Here is a verse about universal remedialism:
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.Matthew 5:25-27
This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.
"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-26 If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign. Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation. So, I respectfully disagree with some traditional Christian points of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Remedialist
If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.
My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well. Here is a verse about universal remedialism:
Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.Matthew 5:25-27
This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.
"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-26 If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign. Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation. So, I respectfully disagree with some traditional Christian points of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
Remedialist
Monday, November 3, 2008
Prodigal Son
I call myself a universal remedialist rather than a universal salvationist. Reason is because I see that salvation in Jesus is limited to those who receive Him in this age before His return. The people who have life AFTER hell will be receiving it having paid for alot of their own sins in hell and the lake of fire. I would not want to be in their shoes.
I wonder how many people realise that the parable of the Prodigal Son and the Father and the older brother does not have anyone left behind in hell. The Prodigal Son returns from having learned his lesson in a hellish existence on earth.
Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire will certainly learn a lesson the hard way. But, they will come to themselves as did the Prodigal Son and will return to the Father's house! I call that "Universal Remedialism."
I wonder how many people realise that the parable of the Prodigal Son and the Father and the older brother does not have anyone left behind in hell. The Prodigal Son returns from having learned his lesson in a hellish existence on earth.
Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire will certainly learn a lesson the hard way. But, they will come to themselves as did the Prodigal Son and will return to the Father's house! I call that "Universal Remedialism."
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