Sunday, December 21, 2008

None Can Cross the Great Chasm Between Paradise and Sheol

Looking at the Rich Man and Lazarus again. If we only think the way knees jerk as a reflex reaction, we may jump to the conclusion (like a frog) that absolutely NO ONE... EVER...IN ANY STATE WHATSOEVER...CROSSES from Heaven to Hell.

Here is the passage quoted again:

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)


Luke:16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20"And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with thecrumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22"Now the poor man died and was carriedaway by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may crossover from there to us.'

Taking the words for what they say, no one crosses between Hades and the bosom of Abraham.

The answer to this seeming problem lies in the fact that the prisoner in Hades will return to God the Father - not to Abraham's bosom in Paradise. Ecclesiastes 12:7 "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 (in Context) The spirit, in this case, is not going to go up to see Abraham and Lazarus but is going to report to God. God will direct him where he must go from there.

We know from 2 Peter that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison which formerly did not obey God during the time of Noah. Obviously Jesus was able to go into Hades and come out into the earth plane and from there into heaven. So, we should not take Luke 16:26 too literally with regard to "none may crossover."

Remedialist

Friday, December 5, 2008

The Great Chasm Between the Rich Man and Lazarus

The Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-26)

Luke:16:19"Now there was a rich man, and he habitually
dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20"And a poor man named Lazarus
was
laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21and longing to be fed with the
crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were
coming and licking his sores.
22"Now the poor man died and was carried
away by the angels to
Abraham's
bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23"In
Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24"And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this
flame.'
25"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during
your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but
now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26'And besides
all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who
wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross
over from there to us.'

The best wording I have found for the Remedialist doctrine concerning Luke 16:19-26 (see link at Luke 16:24-26 ) is part of an article written by a friend. It is as follows:

In earth life, one person may suffer from cancer and, another, tuberculosis and still another leprosy. In none of these does a normally rational person conclude that an infuriated God is seeking vengeance and inflicting torment. He recognizes that such illnesses and suffering are the natural outcome of the violation of the law of physical well-being. Similarly with the soul in Hades, it is but enduring the inevitable outcome of violating God's laws. (Ezek. 18:4) The soul dies because the rules for its health were not observed.


Father Abraham told the rich man that there was balance in God's plan for His offspring. (Lk. 16:25) But the Greek word translated "tormented" never should have been rendered in that way. At the worst, its meaning is pain. The lexicon gives the meanings of "pain of mind, grief, distress." However, the indoctrinated translators of Scripture lost no opportunity for paralyzing the people with stark terror of a demon-God. It should also be pointed out that the Greek word translated "torment" in Lk. 16:23 can lend itself to that rendering, yet that is not true to its original meaning. Originally it had to do with the applying of a touchstone to gold for trying its genuineness. By analogy and with reference to people, it had to do with cross-examination and/or the placing under duress to obtain a true confession.


In this parable, the Lord was pointing out how the rich man found himself in duress to obtain a true confession. This applies even to the trying of the gold with the touchstone, because gold symbolizes spirit. Here the spirit's genuineness and worth were being tried, as it was forced to shed its refuge of lies. It should be clear to any thinking person that the laws of God are designed to bring about balance. The rich man had enjoyed the good of the earth, though we may surmise that he misused the blessings. As a result, the balances swung toward the counterbalance beyond death. During the process, the rich man had ample time to reflect upon and come to an understanding of God's immutable laws of Truth and justice. During the earth life, Lazarus endured much, and yet through it he had found his Redeemer and his God, as shown in the meaning of his name--whom God helps. Thus, beyond death, the balances swung toward Lazarus being consoled.


EXPERIENCE IN PARADISE


Lazarus is a type for people who are “born-again” believers in Jesus, those who have formed a contract with the Lord during their earth-life. Father Abraham continued to explain that, between his own realm and the lower zone of the unsaved, there had been fixed a "great chasm" so that there was no passage from one zone to the other for dwellers in either zone. Of course, balance could not be realized by those in the unseen world, if all would be able to intermingle and partake of the same conditions. Therefore, there was a gulf between them. Bear in mind how the Lord said that, after death, Lazarus was carried by the messengers into the bosom of Abraham. (Lk. 16:22) By himself in the comparative density of his soul body, Lazarus was no more able to ascend into Paradise than the fish of the sea to soar up onto the mountains where the birds nest.
But in Paradise, there is a learning about the environment. In the fullness of their time, as Abraham has done, those of the Lazarus type learn to master the lower soul strata - even as some birds, such as geese, are masters of the high airways as well as the water depths. But such power and proficiency in travel cannot be granted the Lazarus types until they have come to understanding, rising far beyond the shallow and agonizing confines of the "me and mine" which are so ingrained within the realm of Lucifer, Otherwise, their paradise would soon be transformed into hell. In the parable, Abraham had entered into that understanding, being able to dispassionately behold his son suffering in the nether realm. Observe that we are not told of Lazarus, nor any of his bedfellows, beholding the rich man. In an earthly parallel, we understand that light penetrates the water depths and can be seen by those within the water, but the birds in the upper air see little, except the blackness of the ocean.

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

Where the Worm Dies Not, and the Fire is not Quenched

Keep in mind that mankind is "spirit, soul, and body." The soul and body are vehicles of expression ... robotic garments of sorts ... for the spirit person. We children of God would not learn nearly as quickly without bodies and souls surrounding our spirit-person. My opinion is we learn 100 times as fast with a body as do the angels which have only spirit.

The fire in Gehenna (a.k.a. "hell") is not put out ("quenched") ... but what about those whose souls are disintegrating in hell? Do they disintegrate forever? Or, do they disintegrate until the soul is gone and only the core of the spirit remains.

Remember Jesus' words, "You will not come out until you have paid the last farthing." Certainly if we throw a stick of wood into a hot furnace, a cup of water will not quench the fire. But the stick of wood will not burn forever. The soul which is disintegrating in hell will disintegrate only until it is destroyed. That leaves the spirit-person naked, but able to be reassigned to a life experience.

What then is "the worm" that dies not? "Worm" is the metaphor for the spirit person. The spirit, when naked is humble like a worm. The spirit of a man is undying and cannot be destroyed. Yet, there is no reason to expect this person to be tormented "forever" but only until the punishment fits the crime.

"The soul that sins shall die." The Lord did not say that the soul that sins shall be tormented forever. "Soul" [nephesh] can be the whole sentient being of man, including body and soul. The body dies on earth as a result of sin. The inner garment, the "soul", disintegrates in hell. The spirit dies not but must have a chance somewhere to return to the Father's house as did the prodigal son.

Yet, this is not to belittle our salvation. Jesus paid a great price to purchase salvation which is received only by those who believe. We who believe in Jesus are saved from going to hell and from losing our soul garments. Salvation in Jesus gives us a resurrection back onto earth in a human body... ready to go on learning to serve the Lord.

Remedialist

Sunday, November 16, 2008

Why not expect TIME in heaven?

ANOTHER THING CONCERNING THE IDEA OF "ETERNITY"

Hello to readers. In a recent post at http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.com/doctrine-debate-forum/314-hope-beyond-hell-3.html#post1360, I have begun a reply to Rick on the subject of the translation of the Greek AION (Strong's Greek word G165 165, and see G166) and the Hebrew OLAM (Strongs H5769 ... 5769).

On that subject, I would like to rhetorically ask the question, "Why should we expect to experience 'eternity' in heaven ... since heaven is part of the creation of God which shall pass away?"

As we know from Scripture, heaven and earth are created places and they shall pass away. The Genesis account describes God creating the heavens and earth ... as well as all that is in them ... over the course of time. Should we not then expect to experience time in heaven? And, if we experience time, are we experiencing "eternity"? If heaven shall pass away, how can it be said, when heaven has passed away, that we experienced eternity during the duration of our life in heaven?Instead of "eternity", I think we should look forward to experiencing PROGRESS and EFFORT over TIME in HEAVEN (as well as on earth during the Kingdom ages yet to unfold upon the earth.)

"Hell"

Concerning "Hell", I would begin to discuss it by saying that we need to see that mankind is a three-part being: spirit, soul, and body as mention by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Also key to the discussion would be the concept that God is the Father of spirits, including every spirit being {angels, fallen angels, the incarnate spirit in each human}. This has a reference in Hebrews 12:9

"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

I would go into Hebrews 12 rather heavily as a start for beginning to understand the ways of our Father in using incentives and corrective measures for training up His children in the Way they should go.Lord willing, we may be having a discussion of these things. I am sure I do not know it all ... by a long shot.

Timotheus Wood

Some Basic Beginings

A welcome to Christians (as well as other readers).

If we agree to the basic Christian message of there being one true religion, namely the way of Jesus the Messiah... the Son... the fulfillment of the Torah of the Sinaitic Covenant, then we can rejoice in Him while we patiently discuss differences. We should try to avoid the trap of emphasizing our differences.

My form of Universalism is called Universal Remedialism. I do not think that all are "saved" in the salvation which the Son of God offers in this age. Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire come out and obey God because all the sin has been burnt out of them. That would include the devils as well. Here is a verse about universal remedialism:

Matthew 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.Matthew 5:25-27

This applies to those who are cast into the prison of hell. The "adversary" with whom we must agree is the Holy Spirit Who convicts us. If we do not agree (confess) with the Holy Spirit and repent, we will be placed in prison and will not come out until we have paid the last farthing.

"Aion of the aions" as used in the Revelation 22:5 says that [His servants] shall be reigning "eis tous aionas ton aionon" which Concordant Literal translates as "into the eon of the eons" while NAS translates it as : they will reign "forever and ever." Revelation 22:5Yet, in 1 Corinthians we have apostle Paul telling us there will be a finish to the reign of the Messiah (and presumably to His servants who reign with Him).1 Corinthians 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.1 Corinthians 15:24-26 If the reign of the Messiah and His servants comes to an end, it is therefore at best a subjective "for ever" which describes the duration of the reign. Hell may seem like forever. The Lake of Fire may subjectively seem like forever. And the rule and reign with Messiah may seem like forever. Yet, there will be a consumation. So, I respectfully disagree with some traditional Christian points of view on this one topic. Yet we agree that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Remedialist

Monday, November 3, 2008

Prodigal Son

I call myself a universal remedialist rather than a universal salvationist. Reason is because I see that salvation in Jesus is limited to those who receive Him in this age before His return. The people who have life AFTER hell will be receiving it having paid for alot of their own sins in hell and the lake of fire. I would not want to be in their shoes.

I wonder how many people realise that the parable of the Prodigal Son and the Father and the older brother does not have anyone left behind in hell. The Prodigal Son returns from having learned his lesson in a hellish existence on earth.

Those who go to hell and to the lake of fire will certainly learn a lesson the hard way. But, they will come to themselves as did the Prodigal Son and will return to the Father's house! I call that "Universal Remedialism."

Sunday, November 2, 2008

Is Salvation "Eternal"?

Is life in heaven "eternal"? One may wonder if "salvation" is "eternal" why should not hell be "eternal" as well. The quick answer is: neither salvation nor hell are eternal but are "eonian"... which means they are of an indefinite but limited time.

Rather than "eternity", followers of Jesus will experience TIME in heaven. Heaven, as we know from scripture, is a created place. It did not exist in God before the beginning when He created heavens and earth. As we experience time on earth, we shall also experience time in heaven.

To experience the passage of time "while the ages roll!" Won't that make it so much more fun than "eternity"?

To begin looking at translation of Greek and Hebrew words, we should look at Strong's Concordance.

Aion versus "Forever"

We see from the Strong's numbers referenced, that the word which was translated "eternal" was Greek word #166. That is aion (or eon) which means an era or a time of unspecified duration.

Strong's Numbers are given here below for Hebrews 5:9

And [G2532] being made perfect [G5048] (5685), he became [G1096] (5633) the author [G159] of eternal [G166] salvation [G4991] unto all [G3956] them that obey [G5219] (5723) him [G846];

The Greek word G166 is AION. The King James Version translated in as "eternal". Therefore people think that salvation is eternal, but the Greek word #166...is not "eternal" it is "eonian" ... which is to say... it goes on for an indefinite time.

It should be obvious to someone who uses the Strong's concordance that AION means an indefinite period of time. Use the concordance to see how it is used in Matthew 24. This is the word which in Matthew 24 the disciples used to ask Jesus, "What will be the sign of ... the end of the eon." KJV translated that as "the end of the world." We can all readily see that something which has an end is not eternal.

Hebrews 5:9 is speaking of our salvation as something which is age-lasting (eonian), something which goes on as long as heaven and earth remain.



Remedialist

Sunday, October 26, 2008

Tripartite Man (Spirit, Soul and Body)

Are you seeking to understand our Father-in-heaven's ways with man (and with angels)?

One very important Biblical concept to ponder is the three-part nature of man. Each one of mankind is a spirit, a soul, and a body.

A great writing on this is in the first couple of chapters or so of Watchan Nee's book titled "The Spritual Man." Currently this book is available for free as an online book at
http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/sprtmnv1/1968v1c1.htm

Although we are not affiliated with the "worldinvisible" organization which posted this at their online library, we appreciate the free service they have done.

The first two paragraphs of that writing are as follows:


SPIRIT, SOUL AND BODY


The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic-soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God's revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man's outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from each
other. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body.
It treats man, rather, as tripartite-spirit, soul and body. I Thessalonians 5.23 reads: "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts. The Apostle Paul refers here to the complete sanctification of believers, "sanctify you wholly. "According to the Apostle, how is a person wholly sanctified? By his spirit and soul and body being kept. From this we can easily understand that the whole person comprises these three parts. This verse also makes a distinction between spirit and soul; otherwise, Paul would have said simply "your soul." Since God has distinguished the human spirit from the human soul, we conclude that man is composed of not two, but three, parts; spirit, soul and body.


Is it a matter of any consequence to divide spirit and soul? It is an issue of supreme importance for it affects tremendously the spiritual life of a believer. How can a believer understand spiritual life if he does not know what is the extent of the realm of the spirit? Without such understanding how can he grow spiritually? To fail to distinguish between spirit and soul is fatal to spiritual maturity. Christians often account what is soulical. as spiritual, and thus they remain in a soulish state and seek not what is really spiritual. How can we escape loss if we confuse what God has divided?


An important book: "Hope Beyond Hell"

God is a Father. He is a good Father. A good father plans to bring up each and every one of his children into the right way of successful life.

Sure, a father provides "free will" to his children. And so has the God Who gave us the Holy Scriptures. God has allowed His children free choice. Yet He provides pain as a result of bad choices.

What is the pain there for? The pain is instructive. It is remedial. It is a result of the errors of the child...but it is a corrective influence upon the child.

"Hell" as used in much of Christian tradition has been described as an unending place of terrible pain for those who dared to defy the Christian God in their short lifetime on earth. I urge you to reexamine what the Holy Scriptures say about this subject.

I recommend a book which correctly views the Holy Scriptures with regards to the concept of hell.

www.hopebeyondhell.net/

If you'd like, go to: www.hopebeyondhell.net/ (http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/) for a free ebook that will explain the plan of "universal salvation" as understood by one brother in Jesus.

My own understanding is somewhat different. I call it "universal remedialism" because I understand that many many people will miss the opportunity for salvation in Jesus the Messiah, yet will be reconciled to Him and the Father at a later time after much cleansing in the Gehenna (trash heap).

"Salvation", as properly understood is only available now and until Jesus returns at the close of this age. Yet there will be a second chance for all God's children ... until every prodigal son is wellcomed home by the Father!